GSA at SJS?

[Kara]

I'm a young-adult librarian in real life. I spend a lot of time reading fiction for the teen set, and one thing that pops up fairly often is the idea of the LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transsexual) teen as outsider.

To attempt to integrate, many of the teens in these stories start what's called a Gay-Straight Alliance (or GSA) at their school. To quote the Wikipedia:

Gay–straight alliances are student organizations, found primarily in North American high schools and universities, that are intended to provide a safe and supportive environment for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) youth and their straight allies.

Essentially, what we'd be looking at would be a club, made of LGBT and straight teens, created in an effort to present a united front against societal pressure.

Now, at a private school like SJS, particularly a Catholic private school, there are all sorts of objections to be raised. However, most of the objections simply don't have a legal leg to stand on. The rule of thumb is that if the school has school-sponsored extra-curricular activities like clubs, it must allow any club that can find a sponsor. Yes, even private schools. In reality, there can be all kinds of delays and stonewalling until the students lose interest and give up.

A real issue with the idea of a GSA at SJS is...do we really need one? I mean, I can see Kara starting one just to quietly show support for someone she thinks is gay...but would that really help the group RP if no one else took advantage? Are LGBT teens ostracized and discriminated against at SJS? Would such a club help anyone's roleplay, or help how their toons felt about themselves?

What ISN'T a GSA? Well, short answer, it's not a frikkin' dating service. It's more oriented toward students supporting each other. Yes, romances can grow out of that, but that happens in chess clubs too.

And it's not just for LGBT teens to sit around, either. Straight students are welcomed, ideally, and form a part of the support structure.

Anyway, that's the idea that's been gnawing at me...any thoughts?

[Stasis Kiss]

Are LGBT teens ostracized and discriminated against at SJS? Would such a club help anyone's roleplay, or help how their toons felt about themselves?

That's kind of like the club that Faster belonged to, the one I can't remember the name of right now - basically it was for the non-humans to band together and be strong in the face of human discrimination.

problem was, pretty much any alien or weird looking ought-to-be-alien person was welcomed with open arms by the community, given a welcome basket and escorted to their spiffy new dorm. the same way that geeks and nerds are supposed to snubbed and ostracized by their peers in a real high school, but in the incestuous world of SJS they fit right in because we're all geeks and nerds behind the scenes.

i don't think anybody has gotten grief for playing a lesbian or gay character IC although some people have gotten grief for having it be the defining characteristic of their character OOC (but that's a whole nother discussion).

I'd be more interested in somebody making a "bully club". we need more of them to counteract the warm fuzzies currently clogging up the hallways.

[Lagomorph]

Actually it was Nennya that started the Non Human Alliance. As far as I know, she's the only member.

Does SJS need a NHA? Does SJS need a GSA? As Stasis points out, we're all sorts of overflowing with the warm fuzzies. We only have a scant handful of PC characters that would harass such students. Characters like Frank. Or when it comes to certain types of aliens, Mimi. We also have a few NPC's but they don't really come into play too terribly much unless someone drags them in on purpose. So if the only purpose of such a club was to combat on-campus harassment or discrimination, then no they wouldn't be necessary.

Fortunately, that's not the only point of such a club. Regardless of the warm fuzzies on campus, there's plenty of non-human-phobia and homophobia out in the wider world. There's also the internal struggles that our characters might go through -- just because you're surrounded by supportive people doesn't mean the journey is instantly easy. And even beyond all that, sometimes it's just nice to be able to spend time with people who have something in common with you.

So really, there's only one question that I think we need to focus on here:

Would such a club help anyone's roleplay?

The NHA flopped because nobody did anything with it. It was very well intentioned, but nobody really had any storylines that pulled on it, and since there's no day-to-day within-SJS pressure for such a niche, it fizzled. That doesn't mean that a NHA or GSA couldn't still end up fitting into someone's roleplay if they wanted it to, though. All it requires is that someone actually work it into their roleplay. Just like any other detail or aspect of our setting.


Getting to the actual topic at hand, I think a GSA could be a good RP tool. Matt is gay. Few students have been explicitly told it but who knows how many have figured it out. He doesn't exactly hide it but he's not been forthcoming about it. Lately, he's starting to just start being more forthcoming about it. He would say that he doesn't really mind people knowing, but in truth it is kinda awkward for him and he does worry about it, warm fuzzy atmosphere notwithstanding. If a GSA started, I can easily see Matt joining it. Being a part of something like that would give him a bit more confidence about being more open. I think he'd also appreciate the supportive environment.

Do I think the GSA will get a ton of RP mileage? No. But it doesn't need to. Most of our clubs and teams (with the exception of football) aren't a huge part of the daily SJS experience. But they're there when they're needed, and they can really contribute to storylines.

So Kara, if you're interested in starting one, I'd say go for it. Matt would join it. I think at a minimum it'd be a good storyline for Matt and Kara and hopefully others. A few months for now it might be forgotten again, but isn't that the way of things?


And since the non human alliance has been mentioned... Fang isn't exactly universally accepted. I know Matt is scared of him. Others are apprehensive of Fang as well. Perhaps the niche for the non human alliance is opening up some too, ya?

[Nova]

*Motions for a AAWEWSOBB* We here at the Alliance against wolves eating winged students or bunny boys stand firm by our idea that wolves should not in fact be allowed to eat other students, and consider ourselves a refuge for those in fear of being eaten by said wolf.

We endorse a strict pack policy in hopes that we are not one of the weak ones near the edge of the herd. If the wolf attacks students are encouraged not to scatter, especially at the core of the herd. More details can be found in our pamphlet. *Motions for Matt to hand out the pamphlet*


Annnnyway I think pretty much what Matt said, it can be open to the whole school and some people might get a little use out of it. Because it won't exactly be mainstream it probably will fade away, but hey? Not every club our group has to become a pillar of the SJS community to be fun!

[Yuki Ookami]

I remember this discussion about a year back. Something to keep in mind is that in this fantasy world of ours SJS is a Catholic school and as such would frown upon any activities, organized or not, that would be contradictory to the bible or the rules set forth by the church and to a greater extent the Pope. Since neither have endorsed alternative life styles as a whole it is doubtful the school and its faculty would allow such a club or organization.

Nevertheless, since this is a player made environment and fantasy anything is possible.

[Switched Alex]

If such a club did exist at SJS, it would most likely have to meet off campus. The campus is basically private property so while the school may not be able to stop students from meeting on there own time, it can say know to hosting the the club on its land.

[Lagomorph]

/distributes pamphlets, whilst encouraging the tankier students to put themselves between the wolf and his prey when he finally starts rampaging >.>


Kara somewhat addresses the Catholic school aspect here:

Now, at a private school like SJS, particularly a Catholic private school, there are all sorts of objections to be raised. However, most of the objections simply don't have a legal leg to stand on. The rule of thumb is that if the school has school-sponsored extra-curricular activities like clubs, it must allow any club that can find a sponsor. Yes, even private schools. In reality, there can be all kinds of delays and stonewalling until the students lose interest and give up.

I actually believe you're wrong Kara, under US law they do have a leg to stand on. Just as the Boy Scouts of America cannot be forced to allow gay members, neither does a private Catholic school have to allow a GSA. The equal access type thing you're referring to is for public schools, and is enforceable because they're public (in other words, funded by public funds and subject to the equal access laws). A private school is within its rights to allow or deny clubs arbitrarily.

Be that as it may, there are private Catholic high schools with GSA's. Certainly it's not as common, but it's by no means unheard of. It's most likely to happen at a school run by Catholics of a more liberal/progressive persuasion. My impression has always been that SJS's brand of Catholicism is fairly liberal -- after all, look at Sister Salvation.

Regarding the Catholic stance on homosexuality, it's only homosexual actions (ie, sexual actions) that is condemned. The Roman Catholic Church has stated that it is not a sin to be gay, and further, that to have homosexual attractions is not sinful since it is beyond one's control. It is the acting on those attractions that is sinful. (Some info can be found here.)

Given the nature of SJS, I could see that they may initially resist a GSA. But if they did, I think they'd probably eventually concede to allow it, provided it did not encourage anything sexual (which shouldn't be encouraged by any school club, regardless who's involved, and isn't part of a GSA's goals anyway). I think the administration may see the value of the support network for the youth.

I also seem to recall that the Church itself does not actually run the school, but are instead only strongly affiliated? Mimi would have to speak more on that, but if that's the case I can see the administration eventually approving a GSA even if the nuns aren't too terribly pleased about it.

It would be ultimately up to SC whether the school would allow a GSA to be created, but even if the answer is "no", it doesn't stop Kara from trying. (EDIT: And it also wouldn't stop Kara from eventually deciding to have it be an unofficial club meeting off-campus if the school doesn't give in, as Alex suggests.)


Also, in case anyone is interested, here's the thread for the Non-Human Alliance. Apparently Faster did start it, but Nennya did some work with trying to do stuff with it a while back.

[Cryogene]

Something else to consider is that the school does not HAVE to endorse anything. The GSA could advertise by word of mouth, meet off-campus, don't ask for school funding for the pizza, and then so long as they don't break any laws or miss curfew SJS has no reason to care. Depending on the personal politics of SJS's leadership, they might also turn a blind eye to the GSA meeting in a classroom after hours or putting up a poster here or there. There's no reason to stretch believability by having the school officially approve of the club.

[Kara]

There's no reason to stretch believability by having the school officially approve of the club.

I agree completely. I'm mostly just curious as to what the reaction is amongst the members of the SJS. Mostly what I'm hearing is, Go for it! Might be fun!

That being the case, I think Kara will probably at least make the effort. I mostly thought of her doing this because of her recent interactions with Matt, by the way, but it'll be fun RP no matter how it all works out.

[Vesper Fiend]

Take what I say with a grain of salt, as I am not Catholic and only have a few relatives who are. I wouldn't think it would stretch believability to have an SJS-approved GSA club, though it might take a while for them to agree to it. Along the lines of what Matt said, the school might be behind it if it was run strictly as a support group. As a private school, they have more ability to encourage and influence the club, and they always have the option of pulling the plug on it if it goes in a direction that they feel is contrary to Catholic beliefs.

[Mimi]

My first fear is that like so many things at SJS, it creates a support network where no adversary exists.

Now that said, as a fiction device, I have no trouble with it-- that is to say, if its purpose was to exist in the background of fiction posts. Probably, it would take the form of a discussion/support group with Atwood or Conrads as the faculty adviser, though it wouldn't be surprising if it was tightly reigned in by the administration. What has been said on the thread is correct-- being homosexual is not a sin, but acting on it is, so there would be a great concern that such a group could become a tacit approval of homosexual dating.

So that leads me to my second fear. Truthfully, if it were SJS-sponsored, it would be more like a support group, focusing on the difficulty of being homosexual and fighting the impulse to act on those feelings. That may not be what you're looking for. SJS isn't likely to sanction a heterosexual group without a healthy dose of "not until you're married"-- but with a homosexual student group it would just be "not." Now, we might ease tensions by simply saying "well, the Church is against all sexual conduct before marriage, so they'd just treat homosexuals with the same attitude they treat heterosexual students with" but that's not really a fair comparison. While heterosexual students can attend a dance together without a problem, two homosexual students slow-dancing is going to raise some red flags. So no, the fact is that the Church does not judge known homosexuals in the same way it treats heterosexuals as concerns dating and romance. It's not just premarital sex. Even homosexual dating is wrong and sinful.

I'll remind everyone that every attempt to force a discussion about homosexuality at SJS has ended up disastrously-- mostly because it's like forcing a discussion about whether students are killing bad guys. The Church would view both as implicitly morally wrong. If your character kills bad guys, then talking about it is really stupid. And frankly, the same goes for homosexuals at a private Catholic school. The discussion always leads to the question of what is a realistic response from the administration, and the realistic response almost always sucks. So, like killing, my fallback position on homosexuality at SJS is a don't ask, don't tell stance. But when people insist on telling, it gets complicated.

So, let me bring this back to where it started, by asking a simple OOC question: what function (IC and OOC) do you envision a GSA to serve?

[Kara]

Fair question. The main reason it sprang to mind is recent discussions and RP between Kara and Matt (Lagomorph). It seems like a step she would take, both to offer support to her friend and to encourage others to do the same.

One of the things I was wondering, with the initial post, was whether there was a need for a GSA. It doesn't look like there really is, at the moment, so I'd be perfectly content with saying something along the lines of, "Yeah, it's there for background, talk to Kara if you feel like joining the imaginary group."

If it's too much trouble, or causes too much trouble, I don't mind walking away from the idea. It was just a thought brought on by my reading a lot of teen fiction. =) I think that it's a step Kara would take, but I also think that if she feels that it's causing DISunity, she'd dissolve it in a heartbeat.

[Gabriel Templar]

How about this? Students try to start one, the school disapproves and we go from there?

Gabe would totally be down for trying to help, and if stonewalled a bit too much he could definitely raise a little PR hell